I learned of Rabbi Rosenberg's retirement from the zablo the same day I finally was forwarded a hazmonah from Rabbi Krauss. The "perfect timing" has left me under a bit of duress.
With regards to the Rabbonim, I'm proud to stand by everything I've said and done until now. This is because everything I've done has been according to Daas Torah and totally free of my personal opinions and aspirations. Depending upon an impartial Rov for guidance, someone who undertakes the achrayus of paskening halachah, was an incredible source of strength and confidence, I must say.
Now, with Rabbi Rosenberg currently retired from the zablo, some of the most pressing issues since the elections desparately need to be addressed. While I personally have some reservations on the ikul and hazmonah recently served, I have neither the expertise or experience needed to decide how to proceed with any level of confidence.
Can the Vaad Hakohol ignore the summons to a Din Torah? Is Crown Heights obligated to answer for itself to an outside Beis Din? These are questions that can only be answered by a Rov.
For this reason, and in the (hopefully temporary) absence of Rabbi Rosenberg's council, I have turned to a neutral Daas Torah from outside our community. In the coming days, I expect to have clear and authoritative guidance on how to proceed, and hopefully bring the chaos to an end.
More as it develops.
Who asked you to go to another bais din? why do u call this acting according to 'Dass Torah'?? What u need to do is simple, go to the 4 Rabbonyim and ask them to either come here and convince Rabbi Rozenberg to continue or to pick another middle Rov. Don't forget, they were the once chossed by both sides and picked Rabbi Rozenberg, let them deal with it.
ReplyDeleteBesides, who said there are still issues to deal with? According to the psak din, now that we have three Rabbonyim, they are the only onse to decide what to do. If they don't all agree (or Rabbi Ozdba still doesn't agree to meet Rabbi Braun) then you need to go according to the majority.
Zaki, up until now you did very good, but now I'm starting to get scared. Think about it this way, if the "new nutral beis din" tells you yes to listen to the ikkul etc, Rabbi Shweii side will never go and they don't need to go cause they aren't obligated to. If the "new nutral beis din" says they don't need to go, do you really think here the story will end? tomorrow they'll will come up with their new story!!!
Zaki, although who am I etc, and I even stay anonyomus.. but from the bottom of my heart I beg you not not to go to as third party. please stick with the original Rabbonyim both Rabbi Ozdba and Shweii agrreed on.
can we know those "outside rav" is?
ReplyDeleteis the identity of the neutral rav confidential?
ReplyDeleteQuestion: why should the Community or Harav Braun have to go to a Din Torah on the very issues already dealt with and ruled by the Zabl"o of 5 Rabbonim?
ReplyDeleteIts was argued, tried and the unequivocal ruling is in.
If tomorrow, 5 youngerleit get together and decide to call for a new din torah against Harav Osdobo shlit"o - with the VERY SAME arguments brought forth in this din torah, would he need to go and fight it? of course not!
This is ridiculous. once a din torah was agreed upon by the community and rabbonim - NO ONE in the community can re-litigate the very same arguments again in a different beis din.
even if they didn't sign onto the 'shtar boirerus'.
אין לדבר סוף - this is not color war.
Zaki,
ReplyDeleteYou already defied the Ikul by bringing Rabbi Braun.
The Ikul “TRO” states clearly that no further action should be taken until a Beis Din is convened on the issues.
Who gave you permission to ignore the IKUL in the first place?
I humbly request that your correspondence with the Rav be in writing. Otherwise how are we to know that you gave over all the correct facts when asking your question?
Only a Beis Din of 3 can instruct you to ignore the IKUL!
Since you're listening to Daas Torah.
ReplyDeleteI assume R'Braun has not been paid yet and flow here on his own expense?
Zaki, I do not want to sound arrogant, just trying to resolve confusion. The issue at hand is already the presence of yet another Beis Din. Why to bring in yet another Beis Din?
ReplyDeleteTo: Levi
ReplyDeletePlease cite a Halachic source for your arguments.
Technically speaking, someone who was not involved in the Rosenberg Din Torah can bring the same case against Rabbi Osdoba in another Beis Din.
Rabbi Osdoba may use the Rosenberg psak as part of his defense but he still must go to the Din Torah.
Besides, the arguments are new arguments that were not discussed by the first beis din.
Just because to you it makes no sense does not change the Halochic legal obligation to listen to the Ikul.
The Kruass beis din offering Rabbi Braun a Zabla. Let him choose his Rabbi and if it is so simple the Beis Din will rule in his favor.
Dear BB,
ReplyDeleteI'm not Rov. Please cite me some Halachic proof that one needs to go to a din torah with every 'shmendrik' on the street - over arguments that have already been dealt with by a Bies Din agreed upon by the ENITRE LEADERSHIP OF THE COMMUNITY.
If you were right, we can have color war here for the rest of our lives!!!
What is the goal here? Do we want to get the community back to a functioning state or continue fighting for the rest of our lives?
Thankfully, 99% of us want to move on and live in peace. We wanted BOTH sides to get a FAIR shake in a Din Torah and a democratic elections supervised by the said Beis Din.
There was a Din Torah. There were fair, democratic elections. There were challenges to the winner by disgruntled people. There was another Psak Din. this is all crystal clear!
Unfortunately, there are some in this community that will never except an outcome where they are not the complete winners and are willing to continue the fight for 100 years.
This way of thinking is MADNESS and leads to anarchy!
The game is OVER. Let's move on.
Who decided that the outside Daas Torah is "netural"? You, Zaki? But you are obviously already biased in this matter, so how can you choose a neutral Rav?
ReplyDelete"You already defied the Ikul by bringing Rabbi Braun"
ReplyDeleteMr. BB - The Vaad Hakohol is legally and Halachicly bound to follow the rulings of the Zabl"o Beis Din. They were given a clear deadline to sign a contract with Rabbi Braun.
No other Beis Din in the woorld!!! can remove that obligation.
The 'ikul' came "after" the Hachtara. "after" the contract was signed!!!
If I got an 'ikul' against Rabbi Segal or Rabbi Osdobo שליט"א, will the vaad have to stop paying their paycheck until the issue is fully resolved (maybe several years)? are you kidding me? where did you come up with these 'brilliant' ideas?
Please explain.
Why do you think that you will listen to a new independent Rav?
ReplyDeleteRabbi Rosenberg stated in writing that Rabbi Braun is not yet Rav, but you went ahead and installed him regardless.
Rabbi Krauss issued an Ikul, yet you ignored it outright.
Rabbi Osdoba wrote you that you should hold off until all is clear on the status of Rabbi Braun, you ignored him.
The Psak of the Zabla said that the vaad hakohol must pay Rabbi Segal, but your vaad never paid him one check and over a half year passed since you were elected.
You claim to support all the members of the bais din, but recently you stopped paying one of the Rabbonim who didn't submit to the blackmail of some outside forces from Manhattan.
So who believes you that Daas Torah means anything to you?
Where are the others vaad members on the issue? how come we never hear about hackner and bronstein?
ReplyDelete"Rabbi Rosenberg stated in writing that Rabbi Braun is not yet Rav, but you went ahead and installed him regardless."
ReplyDeletePlease advise us In which of his Piskey Dinim or his communications with the 'tzdadim' (vaad Hakohol) Did Rabbi Rosenberg write ANYTHING REMOTELY resembling what your allege???
If you are referring to the STOLEN internal email, first of all, it was PRIVATE and NOT intended for ANYONE to see it (by the way, I believe that Rabbi Rosenberg resigned in part due to this and other LEAKS from the Beis Din PRIVATE communications...)
Did he instruct the Vaad to HIRE Rabbi Braun? YES! in a clear Psak Din - with a deadline. Din he notify ANYONE in the public that he had ANY doubts as to whether Rabbi Braun is the current 3rd Rov? absolutely not.
Leaking and publishing private communications, aside form being גזילה, subject to חרם דרבינו גרשום and under "הרי הוא מכלל הולך רכיל מגלה סוד". The Beis Din NEVER instructed the Vaad to do ANYTHING other then immediately hire Rabbi Braun - which they did.
The current, crystal clear stance of the Beis Din is that Rabbi Bruan is the 3rd Rov on the Beis Din. Period.
If you have other proof - bring it on - המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה
Are the Rabbonim of the bet din of Crown Heights under the Vaad? can the Vaad make changes to the Bet Din?
ReplyDeleteIf the answer is no, then once the Bet Din lead by Rabbi Rosenburg issued it's Psak that Rav Braun was legally and legitimately elected and is fit to serve as our Rov, the Vaad has absolutely nothing more to to with this matter - other then fulfill their duty to pay the salaries of the Rabbonim.
Why are we focused on the Vaad at this point? Why does the Vaad have to act in any manner at this point?
Once a Rav was Halachicly elected - in this case it was certifies by the Rosenburg Bet Din - he is Rav for life, like it or not...
To: Levi
ReplyDelete1.The arguments being debated are the not the original issues that were discussed before the Beis Din. In fact the events being discussed happened after the Psak came out.
2. A strong argument was made by Reb Yoel, Pinye Kork, Gerlitzky, and SB Levin, that these issues are not within the jurisdiction of the Rosenberg Beis Din. Additionally, the people bringing the new Din Torah are not the same people who brought the old din torah.
3. Even Rabbi Rosenberg, in his last official correspondence with Zaki, wrote that he’d rather have Rabbi Kruass take off the Ikul then have a case where the two are BD might have to fight. In other words Rabbi Krauss has to take off the Ikul or the Rosenberg BD must oppose Ikul otherwise Zaki is required to listen.
4.In the last correspondence that I saw, R. Rosenberg informed R. Braun & the Rabbonim that there will be a hearing to discuss R. Braun's status and it is not 100% that it will go in Braun's favor. He even wrothe that all actions taken from here on are Braun's owb responsibility and he cant' blame the BD. That hearing has not happened.
5.It makes no difference whether it was meant to be a private or public email. Rabbi Rosenberg sent the email to Rabbi Braun and is therefore as binding as the psak.
6. As in law, it’s not about what make sense to you but rather about “the law” Halalcha. When someone is called to a BD he is required to go.
7. If Rabbi Braun or Zaki feel that these issues were already decided and it’s ”all crystal clear” let them go to a Zabla and make these arguments. if its so simple then it will only be one hearing and in no doubt the Rabbonim will side with them.
To Anonymous 3:24
ReplyDelete"If I got an 'ikul' against Rabbi Segal or Rabbi Osdobo שליט"א, will the vaad have to stop paying their paycheck until the issue is fully resolved (maybe several years)? are you kidding me? where did you come up with these 'brilliant' ideas?"
You are very misinformed! The Vaad stopped paying Rabbi Osdoba a while ago. The Vaad has not issued a single check to Rabbi Segal! so please explain your point?
To B.B.
ReplyDeleteThank you for speaking up.
I personally doubt that the ikul is valid. It is certainly not enforceable.
ReplyDeleteCan you be meakel lemafreya? Braun was already appointed as rov and had a contract before the ikul was ever issued.
Can you be summoned to a din torah without toviim? Can you be summoned to a din torah for no reason, simply as a "do-over?"
Is there any halachic entity in our times that has more strength than a zabl"a?
I believe that the answer to all of these questions is "no."
In my opinion, whoever asked for the ikul is only attempting to delay the inevitable, and doesn't mind to promote machlokes while doing so.
I personally voted for Rabbi Bogomilsky, but I am totally turned off by the temper tantrums that followed the elections.
Regardless.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Braun is still obligated to listen to the Hazmonah and will have to defend his actions to the Kruas beis din or to a Zabla.
Rabbi Braun received the names of the Tovim.
ReplyDeleteThe bd did not reveal the names of the toviin to anyone.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThere was a Hazmonah sent to Rabbi Braun with the names of all the toviim listed on the bottom.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete